Programming languages

[/dev/null]

But, I"m NOT a professional programmer, I did NOT study programming in college, nor is programming my job and I suspect this is the case for the vast majority of AutoIT, Limnor, etc... users.  Furthermore, programming a "medium size" application with 10,000 to 15,000 lines of code in Assembly, C, C++, or even Basic is NOT something that I would want to do, unless I had to. 

So, how comes you think you can predict the future of programming languages, if you have not too much experience at all? I don't want to bother you, I just want to know how you came to your conclusions, especially if your're not a professional programmer and probably don't know enough about the history and potential of current programming languages.

This is WHY, I use programming languages like Limnor, Euphoria, and AutoIT (why are you using AutoIt and not C++???) and this is why so many script languages exist.  I'm not into torturing myself or S&M and so are a lot of other people. 

As I wrote in one of my previous posts, I use RAD environments (perl, AutoIT, etc.) for special tasks, which would take longer to write in C++. I prefer AutoIT especially because it's very easy to build a GUI on windows.

The largest program that I have wrote in Limnor was about 4,000 lines of code and I estimated this by using a disassembler and checking out the generated pseudo code.

You can't compare intermediate (pseudo) code with "lines of code". A compiler will create several lines of intermediate code from a single line of C++ which will finally be converted to assembly and in the last step to machine code.

approach that I have advocated be done with AutoIT) and MUCH more.  By the way, you can add C# and/or VB.NET code to your program too, so your are not forced to just do everything visually. 

Well actually you are forced to use C# or VB.NET, because there is only a very limited number of so called performers. So, what's the benefit of Limnor if I had to write all extra code in C# just to integrate it with a "click" in my Limnor application. Btw. who is going to code all that C# stuff? I guess not the Limnor users, as they would not be able to do it. I guess you still need those "crazy" guys that still use C++ or C# to manage 15.000 lines of code and more for you the create the perfromers you need.

You can also visually see the logic of your code by using its rudimentary flowchart, which is called Page Map/Application Map.

Based on the history of Limnor (described on their website) and the proposed use I come to the comclusion, that Limnor is mainly used to create some kind of presentations (or kiosk systems) that have a typical "work/data-flow". As such, it is not suited to solve all classed of problems and thus not an all purpose development system. Just one example: Build a Limnor application that implements quicksort. I doubt that you can do that with limnor.

The best way to answer your other questions about the success of Limnor is to go to their websites (did you do that?),

I one of my posts I told you that I tried to follow one of their math tutorials and I found it rather complex. So, yes I went to their web site and read a lot about Limnor. However there was nothing that convinced me, it is any better than other shareware visual programming environments.

If you need to know all the people and companies that use Limnor, before you download and try it, than that is your problem. 

I really don't need to know all those people. However, you told us that there are commercial applications on the market built with Limnor and I was just asking about the details as I'm truely curios what kind of commercial applications can be built with limnor.

Cheers

Kurt

[autoitNOW]

So, how comes you think you can predict the future of programming languages, if you have not too much experience at all? I don't want to bother you, I just want to know how you came to your conclusions, especially if your're not a professional programmer and probably don't know enough about the history and potential of current programming languages.

As I wrote in one of my previous posts, I use RAD environments (perl, AutoIT, etc.) for special tasks, which would take longer to write in C++. I prefer AutoIT especially because it's very easy to build a GUI on windows.

You can't compare intermediate (pseudo) code with "lines of code". A compiler will create several lines of intermediate code from a single line of C++ which will finally be converted to assembly and in the last step to machine code.

Well actually you are forced to use C# or VB.NET, because there is only a very limited number of so called performers. So, what's the benefit of Limnor if I had to write all extra code in C# just to integrate it with a "click" in my Limnor application. Btw. who is going to code all that C# stuff? I guess not the Limnor users, as they would not be able to do it. I guess you still need those "crazy" guys that still use C++ or C# to manage 15.000 lines of code and more for you the create the perfromers you need.

Based on the history of Limnor (described on their website) and the proposed use I come to the comclusion, that Limnor is mainly used to create some kind of presentations (or kiosk systems) that have a typical "work/data-flow". As such, it is not suited to solve all classed of problems and thus not an all purpose development system. Just one example: Build a Limnor application that implements quicksort. I doubt that you can do that with limnor.

I one of my posts I told you that I tried to follow one of their math tutorials and I found it rather complex. So, yes I went to their web site and read a lot about Limnor. However there was nothing that convinced me, it is any better than other shareware visual programming environments.

I really don't need to know all those people. However, you told us that there are commercial applications on the market built with Limnor and I was just asking about the details as I'm truely curios what kind of commercial applications can be built with limnor.

Cheers

Kurt

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You know as well as I do that you don't have to be the "world's best" programmer to follow logical trends and come to a conclusion. Based on your argument, /dev/null/Kurt, you would have to be a Boxer in order to coach Boxing or train Boxers. What you will actually find in reality, is that coaches and training is another skill set, just like being able to predict trends. Have you ever heard of a the stock market??? Being the best mechanic, does not mean you know how to make money, invent the kind of machines that you are working on, etc... Furthermore its only a prediction and if you disagree than fine but like I stated, "time will tell".

I'm only giving you an approximation of the lines of code. Limnor and C++ or C# are two different programming methods, so its extremely difficult to go beyond a guess.

With Limnor, your are NOT forced to use C# or VB.NET. I can tell you have not really used the program and I think you don't like "codeless" so you may have developed some bias against it that makes it hard for you to want to understand it. I wonder if you use tool like AutoBuilder, AU3recorder, etc... that autogenerate code for you in AutoIT or do you just type all the code one command at a time.

There are actually a lot of performers, you have to download the program and use it to know this.

Limnor users do NOT have to rely on C# or C++ programmers. Limnor can use nearly ANY programming language that is able to make DLLs. So Limnor can use VB.NET, different version of Basic, Euphoria, etc.... What is required is that you know how to make a DLL in a programming language. Limnor can also CALL DLLs, like AutoIT.

Limnor users can get around having to make DLLs by loading and saving Limnor libraries between them. Similar to AutoIT UDFs, you can import someone else's library into your project and use it for your program. Longflow is also working on a project in which Limnor users can make ActiveX DLLs, like those in Visual Basic (A similar project for AutoIT, may be beneficial for AutoIT users). These Limnor ActiveX DLLs can only be used and exchanged among Limnor users, but they will be very helpful.

Furthermore, Limnor has released its SDK (Software Development Kit) for FREE. This is to open the development of performers for the Limnor language and allow free ones to made and exchanged.

Limnor is also used far beyond just presentations or Kiosks. If you actually used Limnor you would know what I mean . Limnor also has bunch of example application s at http://www.limnor.com/ then select "downloads" and then "sample applications " Limnor is also an excellent programming language for those that use and make database application, use MS Access, or make applications with Excel. Even more, a Limnor automation performer is rumored to be in the works as well.

You stated that you use AutoIT and Perl for Rapid Application Development, because doing the same thing in C++ would be slow. Well, you have just proved part of my whole point. People would use programming languages like Limnor or Imitate (for Java) because they are easier to learn, easier to manage, or its faster to create certain types of programs. Furthermore, you can add in C# or VB.NET code whenever you need to. The type of tasks that you can use codeless languages for will INCREASE in the future, not decrease. I did not say C++ or Assembly would just blow away, but people will find easier methods to do things and ways to bypass having to create a program by creating 20,000 lines of code one command at a time.

[Valik]

You know as well as I do that you don't have to be the "world's best" programmer to follow logical trends and come to a conclusion.  Based on your argument, /dev/null/Kurt, you would have to be a Boxer in order to coach Boxing or train Boxers.  What you will actually find in reality, is that coaches and training is another skill set, just like being able to predict trends.  Have you ever heard of a the stock market??? Being the best mechanic, does not mean you know how to make money, invent the kind of machines that you are working on, etc...  Furthermore its only a prediction and if you disagree than fine but like I stated, "time will tell".

While this is true to some extent, it's still very important to have your finger on the pulse of the community by being a part of it and not just watching as an outside observer. Your comments demonstrate that you are neither a member of the community nor are you terribly adept at analyzing trends. A good coach will have the set of coaching skills you allude to but a great coach will have those skills and also come from the boxing world so knows what its like to be on both sides of the rope.

I did not say C++ or Assembly would just blow away, but people will find easier methods to do things and ways to bypass having to create a program by creating 20,000 lines of code one command at a time.

You said that C\C++ were not the languages of the future which to me means they are dead (Aside from legacy maintenance reasons, obviously). I think its the comments you make like that which cause Kurt and myself to persist. You make these (absurd to most) claims how how these things are "all that" and then you try to justify it but you come off seeming more of a zealot than a non-partisan analyst.

Since you love explaining things, though, explain to me why it's better to see a "performer" and drag and drop it somewhere as opposed to write some lines of code to call the method as is typical in "old-school" languages? From the sounds of it, the only difference between these "codeless" languages and traditional languages is that they force code reuse paradigms on the maintainers. This can be done with any language, however. I've sometimes freaked myself out at just how little code it required to get an AutoIt script up and running just because of my extensive personal library of code.

Lets pretend for a moment that I wanted to go "codeless". What would be the advantage (Purely from a coding aspect) of using Limnor compared to spending a few days writing some fancy GUI (In AutoIt!) and then using that to simulate the same effect? What will be the net gain here? It sounds to me like the world is a happy place to be in unless there isn't a "performer" that does what I want. Then I'm going to have to get my hands dirty under the hood, anyway. However, this seems to be no different than any other language. I'm sure if you want to write something simple and all the "performers" are there it'll be simple. But what happens if what you want isn't there? In traditional languages, if you know enough to use the language you theoretically should know enough to add the thing you don't need.

[/dev/null]

skill set, just like being able to predict trends.  Have you ever heard of a the stock market??? Being the best mechanic, does not mean you know how to make money, invent the kind of machines that you are working on, etc...  Furthermore its only a prediction and if you disagree than fine but like I stated, "time will tell".

Oh, wait. Are you telling me, that you are a stock market expert as well and know the future of my stocks? Well, then I would like to give you some money to invest for me. Please post your bank account . Money will arrive soon

Trying to be boxing trainer, without having a clue about boxing is absolutely ridiculous! Trying to build a "serious" application without having a clue about application development, probably just by klicking on some "performers", is evenly ridiculous.

Limnor users do NOT have to rely on C# or C++ programmers. Limnor can use nearly ANY programming language that is able to make DLLs.  So Limnor can use VB.NET, different version of Basic, Euphoria, etc....  What is required is that you know how to make a DLL in a programming language.  Limnor can also CALL DLLs, like AutoIT.

If someone knows how to make and use a DLL, then he would not struggle with a language like C++ or C#. After all with Limnor, you are still dependent on some programmers with good programming skills in any procedural language to provide the performers (modules) you need.

Limnor is also used far beyond just presentations or Kiosks.  If you actually used Limnor you would know what I mean .  Limnor also has bunch of example application s at http://www.limnor.com/ then select

I asked you twice to name some real applications, not just the samples and tutorials. I'm still desperately waiting for an answer, especially as you said that comapnies are using limnor NOW to build commercial applications. So, if they are HERE NOW, where exactly are they?

BTW: I just subscribed to the Limnor forum and I was truely amazed about the diversitiy and the knowledge of the forum members. BTW: The current number of registered forum users is the tremendous amount of 48 (including myself)!! And the total number of posts is roughly 100 !! Most of them are feature requests and installation problems. Valik is absolutely right. Limnor might be HERE, but it has not arrived yet....

"downloads" and then "sample applications " Limnor is also an excellent programming language for those that use and make database application, use MS Access, or make applications with Excel.  Even more, a Limnor automation performer is rumored to be in the works as well.

One last word. Write quicksort with Limnor (obviously WITHOUT an external performer, built in whatever language you prefer) and I'll be quiet!

EDIT: I just installed Limnor and wanted to create a new application. Guess what I'm offered to create? "Desktop/CDROM Title" or "Kiosk". I guess my previous statement is still valid....

Based on the history of Limnor (described on their website) and the proposed use I come to the comclusion, that Limnor is mainly used to create some kind of presentations (or kiosk systems) that have a typical "work/data-flow". As such, it is not suited to solve all classed of problems and thus not an all purpose development system. Just one example: Build a Limnor application that implements quicksort. I doubt that you can do that with limnor.

After some experience with Limnor, I'm tempted to say it is totally crap. It's by no means faster than to code in any "old style" language. There are loads and loads of options and menues one can choose for each performer. Even to add a simple mathematical formula it took me exactly 25 mouse clicks and about 3,5 meters dragging my mouse (I actually measured it !). In that time I could have written easily > 25 lines of code, with much more content than that. No, thanks I'll stick to the "old style" programming as there is nothing that limnor could offer to me. And I'm pretty sure that this will not be the next "big wave".

Cheers

Kurt

Edited August 9, 2005 by /dev/null

[anystupidassname]

Wow, I created a monster...

It wasn't my intention to get you all riled up but it got the job done.

I now have plenty to work with. Thanks.

[autoitNOW]

Wow, I created a monster...

It wasn't my intention to get you all riled up but it got the job done.

I now have plenty to work with. Thanks.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

AutoITNOW: Yeah, People have their point of view and I think this debate is not going to change people that have invested years into one way of thinking.

Oh, wait. Are you telling me, that you are a stock market expert as well and know the future of my stocks? Well, then I would like to give you some money to invest for me. Please post your bank account . Money will arrive soon wink.gif

Trying to be boxing trainer, without having a clue about boxing is absolutely ridiculous! Trying to build a "serious" application without having a clue about application development, probably just by klicking on some "performers", is evenly ridiculous.

Unlike yourself, I think Valik understood what I meant. I'm a technical user that needs to get certain projects done or resolve certain problems. My focus is on getting RESULTS easily and/or quickly, more than the "method" or defending any programming language.

A company CEO, IT Manager, company executive, often could care less what programming language is used, if it SOLVES their problem in a cost effective way. They also will fall a sleep on the debate of VBScript versus JScript versus Perl or the debate on C++ versus .NET versus Pascal versus Assembly.

Myself and others need to RESOLVE problems makes our view no less or no more valid than any professional programmers. The point of programming languages is not to "worship" them, but to get certain tasks done.

You don't have to be a professional programmer to realize that the bottom line is often problem resolution, speed, ease, money, and time.

In many cases, but not every case, whatever can help me get the job done with the least amount of trouble is what I'm going to use. Its one of the reasons why I like AutoIT, as well as Limnor.

From that perspective and as a user of a programming language, I (and various others) are going to have a different point of view than a professional programmer. Nevertheless, the view of NON-professional programmers, NEW programmers, or Part-time programmers are equally important and even effect the popularity of a programming language.

Somebody may be the biggest advocate for using only Assembly, but it does not mean people that are new or part-time programmers will want to follow in his/her footsteps and deal with THOUSANDS of lines of code or do things the "hard way".

If someone knows how to make and use a DLL, then he would not struggle with a language like C++ or C#. After all with Limnor, you are still dependent on some programmers with good programming skills in any procedural language to provide the performers (modules) you need.

That was not the point and you know it. I was answering your question about Limnor programmers needing to rely on C++ people to make performers and DLLs. The answer is NO, Limnor programmers don't need to rely on C++ or C#.

DLLs and Limnor Performers can be created in numerous other programming languages besides C++, like various versions of Basic or Euphoria. Furthermore, Longflow is coming out with ActiveX DLLs for Limnor, so the Limnor users can make their own DLLs to exchange with each other or other .NET languages.

What language you make DLLs in may be based on your preference and you do not have to use C++.

Limnor users can CALL DLLs from Limnor, so they can just look around for DLLs made by others and use those (like in AutoIT).

I asked you twice to name some real applications, not just the samples and tutorials. I'm still desperately waiting for an answer, especially as you said that companies are using limnor NOW to build commercial applications. So, if they are HERE NOW, where exactly are they?

BTW: I just subscribed to the Limnor forum and I was truly amazed about the diversitiy and the knowledge of the forum members. BTW: The current number of registered forum users is the tremendous amount of 48 (including myself)!! And the total number of posts is roughly 100 !! Most of them are feature requests and installation problems. Valik is absolutely right. Limnor might be HERE, but it has not arrived yet....

One last word. Write quicksort with Limnor (obviously WITHOUT an external performer, built in whatever language you prefer) and I'll be quiet!

EDIT: I just installed Limnor and wanted to create a new application. Guess what I'm offered to create? "Desktop/CDROM Title" or "Kiosk". I guess my previous statement is still valid....

Based on the history of Limnor (described on their website) and the proposed use I come to the conclusion, that Limnor is mainly used to create some kind of presentations (or kiosk systems) that have a typical "work/data-flow". As such, it is not suited to solve all classed of problems and thus not an all purpose development system. Just one example: Build a Limnor application that implements quicksort. I doubt that you can do that with limnor

Again, you are trying to be funny. You claimed that Limnor was good for little more than making "Kiosks". The "sample applications" demonstrate that you are very wrong, but you persist.

You obviously, are still blinded by your bias that you don't realize what you are typing. Limnor can be used for both making DESKTOP Applications AND Applications INSTALLED FROM a CD-ROM. The Desktop/CD-Rom option allows you to this and its purpose is also for how you will INSTALL and distribute your program. The Kiosk option, is for those that are making Kiosks. Limnor is, by the way, one of the world's top application for making Kiosks because it is so EASY to do so(read the press clipings and ratings).

As for the number of Limnor users at its site, the website opened in late June. Therefore Limnor's portal/developer website has been open for LESS than 2 MONTHS. Before, Longflow answered users question by e-mail, and STILL DO.

The purpose of the additional Limnor website is to start a user Limnor Developer group, allow more advanced Limnor users to test Betas, to allow user to exchange Performers, and to exchange info.

I have made programs with Limnor and so have a number of my friends. They have sold those programs for money or use them at their company. I'm not about to get more personal than that. Who else is using Limnor or WHO is using AutoIT is should not be the only criteria for judging the worth and merit of Limor or AutoIT anyway. As for the number of companies or making certain programs in Limnor, that is info. that you can get from LongFlow. You can e-mail Limnor support or (better yet) post your challenge on the Limnor website.

Another point is that Limnor actually helps teach and/or generate interest in C# and VB.NET. I find it interesting that you are attacking Limnor for being a not widely accepted language, but are an AUTOIT user. Who accepts and uses the AutoIT language??? Limnor's debugger, error logs, and certain performers show C#/VB.NET code or can make use of C#/VB.NET code. Say what you will about .NET, but its a more widely accepted and used language than AutoIT is. Furthermore, there are projects to port .NET to Linux and MACs, and Limnor programs will run on those OSes too. If you are so good at using C++ than why even bother with AutoIT. If you say you use AutoIT for "ease of use" , to save time, reduce the amount of code you have to write or troubleshoot than you are simply repeating many of the same arguments that can be used for codeless programming languages like Limnor and Imitate.

Lastly, if you don't like Limnor than fine, but it does not take away that others find it useful and there are even things that AutoIT "developers" can learn from it.

Valik...

Since you love explaining things, though, explain to me why it's better to see a "performer" and drag and drop it somewhere as opposed to write some lines of code to call the method as is typical in "old-school" languages? From the sounds of it, the only difference between these "codeless" languages and traditional languages is that they force code reuse paradigms on the maintainers. This can be done with any language, however. I've sometimes freaked myself out at just how little code it required to get an AutoIt script up and running just because of my extensive personal library of code.

Lets pretend for a moment that I wanted to go "codeless". What would be the advantage (Purely from a coding aspect) of using Limnor compared to spending a few days writing some fancy GUI (In AutoIt!) and then using that to simulate the same effect? What will be the net gain here? It sounds to me like the world is a happy place to be in unless there isn't a "performer" that does what I want. Then I'm going to have to get my hands dirty under the hood, anyway. However, this seems to be no different than any other language. I'm sure if you want to write something simple and all the "performers" are there it'll be simple. But what happens if what you want isn't there? In traditional languages, if you know enough to use the language you theoretically should know enough to add the thing you don't need.

If the performer is there than yes it will be a happy programming day, if not than all will not be so easy. Unlike what was implied by Dev/null/Kurt, there are a LOT of Limnor performers... for Databases, Arrays, Strings, Logic expressions (also logic expression functionality like IF Then Else is built in to Action and Action Lists), Charts, DLL Caller, Files, FTP, smartcards, etc... The performers are often multi-functional and usually do more than just one simple task, but can be called to do a whole bunch of tasks.

Most of the functionality of the Limnor program is the performers themselves. Limnor, can be seen a framework to connect the different performers.

How to create what you don't have is a question that would come up for only a small percentage of Limnor users. Let me remind you though, that there are already so many performers that in 95% of the cases they will do anything users at that level will need to do. The situation is similar to that of AutoIT, with the new performers/new features (like UDFs, etc...) are usually going to be used by a small percentage of Power Users. A Limnor user would probably start looking for a DLL that somebody else made, like for many AutoIT users, before thinking about making their own.

If the performer does not do what you need, than you can code directly in C# or VB.NET. I think Limnor users would more naturally go in that programming direction because Limnor is .NET based. If for some reason you wanted to create a performer for others to use or for other in your company, than you can use any programming language that can make DLLs.

The Software Development Kit (SDK) is free and can be downloaded from Limnors Portal website. The SDK tells you and gives examples on how to turn your DLL into a Limnor Performer.

I think the overall net gain is ease of use for certain more complicated GUI based programming tasks. This is why I came up with the 100 to 200 lines of code example. If you just want to put out an easy non-gui based tasks, that is only 25 lines of code than few things would be better than AutoIT. On the other hand IF you are making a quasi-complex GUI based program that interacts with a database and you are a part-time programmer than that is where Limnor would really shine (and that would be the one I would choose).

AutoIT could emulate various features of Limnor or Imitate (for Java) if it had a more developed IDE and focused on Autocode generation for assigning event/actions to controls, but that does not seem to be anybody's focus at this time. Overall, its really a question of convenience and preference.

Edited August 11, 2005 by autoitNOW

[/dev/null]

AutoITNOW, I deeply thank you for explaining me all this really complex stuff, I was not aware of before. I think I understand it now. Limnor ist MUCH better than any other language (even english) and I realized, that I can get faster and better programms with much less brain, which is oviously very good, as I'm gooing to be a manager when I'm grown up. Having said this, I will immediately throw away C++, C#, AutoIT and all other obviously useless programming tools, and solely programm in Limnor from NOW on, as Limnor is here NOW! Again, thank you very much, I really have learned a lot from you!!! You are my master!!!

EDIT: I forgot something.

AutoIT could emulate various features of Limnor or Imitate (for Java) if it had a more developed IDE and focused on Autocode generation for assigning event/actions to controls, but that does not seem to be anybody's focus at this time.

Ah, very good! So AutoITNOW, when can we expect your AutoIT IDE to be ready? I'm very sure it will take you only a few days with Limnor, right? Maybe you can convince your friends to accompany you. I mean those friends that sold their Limnor applications or us it in their company, you remember? With your combined forces it should even take you less than a few days, as Limnor (text from web site) "has unique features for large scale application development, including hierarchical page organizations, developer and user management, developer-user-projects assignments and project security". I really can't await the codeless code generating AutoIT IDE you proposed. Please PM me as soon as you've got a beta. I'm willing to do all the beta testing for you.

PS: For those that did not "detect" the sarcasm: I'm out of this thread, as this does not lead to anything.

Cheers

Kurt

Edited August 11, 2005 by /dev/null

[Valik]

autoitNOW, ignoring what you said just for the sake of not arguing about individual points, my only comment about your last post is that you used the word "Limnor" so many times to render any validity to the post worthless. The word was used so much that it sounds like a zealot speaking. I'm not accusing you of being a zealot, mind you, I'm just stating that you repeated that one word so many times that I will now be walking around for the rest of the day chanting and muttering the word it is so ingrained into my brain. I would encourage you to work on that some. When a person walks away from a post muttering only a single word from it and the post is of a sizable length, well, let's just say that isn't a very effective message.

[anystupidassname]

All that is missing to this thread now is some dude ranting about Jesus Christ being our savior.

[Jon]

All that is missing to this thread now is some dude ranting about Jesus Christ being our savior. 

Don't joke. It's happened before.

This is the scariest thread i've read in ages

[JSThePatriot]

Don't joke.  It's happened before.

This is the scariest thread i've read in ages 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Aye it has happened. Its one thing to believe in something, but just because you believe in it doesnt mean you have to force it on other people. If everything is what it is cracked up to be people will come to you and ask you.

Just like terrorists they are killing as we arent of their religion. If we were then we wouldnt get bothered, unless by accident.

So there is no use forcing things as it generally causes war where it shouldnt be. Dont get me wrong there is a time and place for most everything, but not all the time and not on a forum for a scripting language, unless someone asks.

Thats my 2 cents.

JS

P.S. (I may have started something here )

[autoitNOW]

Anti C++ talk is blasphemy and don't you sinners forget it.

C++.NET and C# are also the tools of the great satan ( Micro$oft ) to trick you into using .NET. .NET = .SIN, CODELESS based .NET tools = definite SIN, that MONO project for Linux and MACs (and others like it) = Judas, MSIL/CIL ( "Hell spawned" Intermediate Language ) = 666, and designers of .NET = Antichrist .

All those other programming languages that have "converted" and created derivatives that work with .NET bear the "marks" of the beast ($ or Micro$oft).

By the way, any other language that is not "blessed" by pure C++ is SIN. But "C" is to "C++" as "Judaism" is to "Christianity", thus its use means thou are only partially damned. Objective-C (Obj-C and whatever...) use is like being a misguided Mormon (according to the church of C++ doctrine).

Excerpts from the church of C++ bible, "For whomever worship blessed C++ shall have a language which will last forever." "If thou are C++, than thou are righteous and thus can regard all other languages with contempt." "Codeless is another name for Antichrist" "The programming language Forth (click Forth to be transported) burns in the hottest fires of programming Hell" "To speak of Java is sacrilegious." "To utter the word "Assembly" is like swearing. A sin, nevertheless, though considered a small one."

All that is not thee one and only "truth" (C++ of course) or a blessed derivative of the sacred language is SIN. Save your programmed souls and repent!!!!

Edited August 18, 2005 by autoitNOW

[Nutster]

So I guess Java is comparible to Islam according to this analogy. Assembly seem to be like String theory.

There is no one language that is best for all circumstances. Here is my point of view.

Assembly

Generation: Second. All second-generation languages are assembly languages.

Features:

• Each assembly instruction generates one machine code instruction.

Pros:

• Create the smallest, fastest programs with the lowest memory and other resource requirements.
• Because of the level of detail, assembly programs give the greatest direct control of any programming language. This means that you can make the computer do anything it is capable of doing, even things that other langugages have no clue how to do.

Cons:

• Writing requires the most detail of pretty much any language type. This means that writing in assembly typically takes the longest time for developing programs.
• Because of the level of detail, assembly programs give the greatest direct control of any programming language. This means that you can shoot yourself in the foot the most easily of pretty much any programming language.
• Each processor family has their own assembly language and if you switch processors, you have to change assembly languages, which means learning yet another language.
• Also, programs written for one processor can not be used on another processor, even if you try to recompile it on that other computer.

AutoIt

Generation: Third

Features: Easy to learn, powerful Windows automation language.

Pros:

• Can do a lot of things that other languages can not do or can not do easily in regards to controlling other applications.
• Can create GUI interfaces on the fly.
• Scripts can be turned into small stand-alone Windows execuatables.

Cons: I am sure I will think of something given enough time.

BASIC

Generation: Third

Features: Beginner's All-purpose Symbolic Instruction Code. I think the name BASIC was made before the initials were established.

Pros:

• Easy to learn. Makes a good first language.
• Can do many simple tasks with a limited ability to really screw things up.

Cons: Limited abiility to do complex tasks.

C

Generation: Third

Features: Written to write the second version of the UNIX operating system.

Pros: Can give a low-level of control of a computer using a portable syntax.

Cons: Because it gives a lot of control to the programmer, it is pretty easy to mess things up big time.

C++

Generation: Third (object-oriented)

Features: Extends ANSI C to a good object-orientated language.

Pros:

Cons:

COBOL

Generation: Third

Features: Early (1950's) programming language to manage databases. New applications use SQL instead.

Pros:

Cons: The most verbose language I have ever used.

Fortran

Generation: Third

Features: Early (1950's) mathematics oriented language with built-in support for complex numbers. New applications are generally written using C++ or Java instead.

Pros:

Cons:

Java

Generation: Third (object-oriented)

Features:

Pros:

• The same compiled program can run on any machine which has a virtual machine written for it.

Cons:

• Is slower (3-10 times or more) than a similar program written in C++ and compiled into native code.

Lisp

Generation: Third

Features: List processing language. Was originally developed for work in artifical intelligence.

Pros:

Cons: No language should have more brackets than keywords. If you miscount your brackets, you are in trouble.

Machine code

Generation: First. All machine codes are first generation languages.

Features: The numeric codes that tell the processor what to do. Assembly code is translated into machine code.

Pros: Same as assembly.

Cons: Same as assembly, but without any easy-to-remember operation codes, just numbers.

Pascal

Generation: Third

Features: Language created for educators to teach advanced programming concepts before exposing students to the complexities and problems of C.

Pros:

• More powerful than BASIC, still with limited ability to get in really big trouble.

Cons:

• Language is compiled to an intermediate code that is then interpretted. (Sort of like what Java does.) This means that Pascal programs are considerably slower than comparable C programs.

Prolog

Generation: Fourth

Features: Programming logic language.

Pros:

Cons:

SQL

Generation: Fourth

Features: Database management, manipulation and queries

Pros:

Cons:

• Can only be used to manage databases.
• Uses lots of memory and processor time for some operations.

I will finish up this list later as I have time. Edited August 19, 2005 by Nutster

[/dev/null]

All those other programming languages that have "converted" and created derivatives that work with .NET bear the "marks" of the beast ($ or Micro$oft). 

First of all: AMEN !!!

Second: I don't think you know what .NET is all about!

Third: Oh my great Lord, please be merciful to him. He does not know better.....

EDIT: AutoITNOW, how is it going with your codeless AutoIT IDE project? I'm desperately waiting for the first beta...

Sorry, I could not resist!

Cheers

Kurt

Edited August 18, 2005 by /dev/null

[/dev/null]

There is no one language that is best for all circumstances.  Here is my point of view.

please add Limnor to the list. Please... PLEASE, ..... You know it's here NOW, so it deserves to be on the list. PLEASE !!!!!

EDIT: As a tribute to Steve Balmer: Limnor, clap, Limnor, clap, Limnor, clap, Limnor, arghchh, clap, Limor, clap, Limnor, clap, Limnor, chrchrrrrcch, Liiimnor, clap Limnor, Limnoorghhh ....

Video: http://www.ntk.net/media/developers.mpg

Cheers

Kurt

Edited August 18, 2005 by /dev/null

[Nutster]

I am only putting in languages I know. I do not know Limnor yet. It does not want to run on my Windows 98 box.

[/dev/null]

I am only putting in languages I know.  I do not know Limnor yet.  It does not want to run on my Windows 98 box.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

any fifth generation language you know (e.g. prolog)?

Cheers

Kurt

[autoitNOW]

First of all: AMEN !!!

Second: I don't think you know what .NET is all about!

Third: Oh my great Lord, please be merciful to him. He does not know better.....

EDIT: AutoITNOW, how is it going with your codeless AutoIT IDE project? I'm desperately waiting for the first beta...

Sorry, I could not resist! 

Cheers

Kurt

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

First, second, and third:

Excerpt from the C++ bible...

"On the third iteration the great programmer in the sky typed, "Let there be code", and so it was.... "

Oh great /dev/null, thou art all knowing and there can be no others that are wiser, save the other blessed disciples of C++.

Oh great priest of C++, /dev/null , forgive my sins and the blasphemy below:

1. When did you code any projects for me or by my request? When? (arrgghhh... that will be 100 hail Marys)

2. At this time, I don't usually use AutoIT for building GUI applications, but for manipulating existing GUIs or as a non-GUI script (Arrrghhhhh..Arghhhh... that will be 300 hail Marys).

3. Limnor has an IDE, so there is no need for me to re-create one for my projects. (Forgive me, for I have typed the name of the Antichrist... ARRRRHHH....ARRRGGHHHHHHH.... that will be 10 lashes of the whip and 1000 hail Marys).

Edited August 19, 2005 by autoitNOW

[autoitNOW]

So I guess Java is comparible to Islam according to this analogy.    Assembly seem to be like String theory. 

Java users = Jihad against C++ and all that is holy. Java and C++ users acknowledge various connections, but war is often inevitable and unavoidable.

Assembly is like speaking about monkeys, evolution, or DNA. Talk of it can be tolerated at times, but its not the holy tongue, and excessive mention of it can be like the sin of having impure thoughts. There is a compromise, by the way, like the concept of "intelligent design". The great programmer created Assembly, on his way to creating the blessed language which is C++. Mucking about with Assembly, is like committing unnatural acts or using fetal tissue.

Now that there is C++, all must acknowledge its superiority.

Edited August 19, 2005 by autoitNOW

[/dev/null]

First, second, and third:

AMEN, and I realy hope you'll find somebody who can help you!!

Cheers

Kurt

Edited August 19, 2005 by /dev/null