Programming languages

[tuape]

Stop it already! Both of you.

[anystupidassname]

I am only putting in languages I know.  I do not know Limnor yet.  It does not want to run on my Windows 98 box.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Ugh, the last thing I wanted to do was put a religious connotation on things

@nutster: Thanks for the rundown.

Did you say Win98?!?

Does java have extremist functions/subroutines that suicide bomb the rest of the programs?!?

@/dev/null: I'm curious about the fifth generation too. Perhaps a description of what is meant by generation as well.

[/dev/null]

Ugh, the last thing I wanted to do was put a religious connotation on things 

Oh come on, we are just kidding (at least me, not sure about AutoITNOW...)

@/dev/null:  I'm curious about the fifth generation too. Perhaps a description of what is meant by generation as well.

wikipedia has a good overview about the "generations" of programming languages. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fifth-generat...amming_language

Cheers

Kurt

Edited August 21, 2005 by /dev/null

[Nutster]

The language generations that I know and teach:

• First - Machine instructions: Numeric codes that tell the processor actually what to do. What pretty much everything gets compiled to.
• Second - Assembly languages: Each instruction is compiled to one machine instruction. It is possible that certain operation codes (op-codes for short) could map to different instructions depending on the way the instruction is constructed, but each assembly instruction becomes one machine instruction after compiling.
• Third - Procedural languages: This is what most people think of when they say computer language. Most object-oriented languages fit in this category. Here you are defining what to do, such as, Open this file, read these lines, parse each line this way, Close the file. AutoIt is a third generation language.
• Forth - Descriptive languages. Despite its name, Forth is a third generation language. In forth generation languages, the expected result is described, but not how to do it. HTML (web pages), XML, Postscript (Laser printing), SQL(databases) are all forth generation languages.

I will have do more research on this idea of fifth generation languages.

[quaizywabbit]

perhaps A.I.? where programs code themselves while you're out playing golf?

[Valik]

Despite its name, Forth is a third generation language.

I would argue that Forth is 2.5 generation but that's my own personal opinion because I abhor reverse polish notation. I'm not concerned with how the computer wishes to implement itself, I want to read my code top to bottom, left to right in a logical order, thank you very much.

Anyway, that's neither here nor there; I just like taking every opportunity I can to bitch about Forth in the hopes somebody will show me a compelling reason why it has to be backwards.

[Nutster]

Patient:  Doctor, it hurts when I move my arms like this.

Doctor:  Then stop doing that.

If you do not like a language, use a different one. I guess it would be different if you are in school and the teacher says to use a particular one. "Here is my project in C++. I know you asked for QBasic, but this is so much more eligant."

[Valik]

If you do not like a language, use a different one.  I guess it would be different if you are in school and the teacher says to use a particular one.  "Here is my project in C++.  I know you asked for QBasic, but this is so much more eligant."

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

If I had a choice, I would obviously not be complaining. The value of a piece of software I use is too great to compromise despite my annoyance with the chosen language it supports as its embedded "scripting" language.

[autoitNOW]

Hey, just playing, so don't take everything we are typing so seriously.

I even liked that movie clip that /dev/null posted.

What program language that you use is up to you. Free choice...

Also, Limnor is a .NET language (and can even be used for scripting and it has just released a tool for making DLLs and Limnor Performers).

Anyway, as a .NET language it all gets converted to MSIL/CIL (need an obfuscator, like with Java, to prevent the the "flow" from being bi-directional). C#, C++.NET, Limnor, VB.NET, Perl.NET, Forth.NET, etc... get converted to MSIL/CIL. With .NET the language choice is more about preference than about one being all that more powerful or better than the other.

On the "lighter side" and special update...

Java fundamentalist programmers will not give up their jihad against other programming languages and the "great satan" (also known as M$) until the rest of the world is all "Javafied". Interestingly, there are reports that the great "Sun clan" is financing the Java bombardment and encouraging hate speech towards M$.

"Its 10:00 AM, have you done some "Java" today?"

Edited August 22, 2005 by autoitNOW

[/dev/null]

I will have do more research on this idea of fifth generation languages.

fifth generation languages are said to be used in the field of artificial intelligence, fuzzy logic and neural networks. Usually Prolog will be placed in the fifth generation, rather than in the fourth.

EDIT: As there is no real common agreement on what the fifth generation is, some people use the term to describe programming environments, like Visual Basic, which I don't agree with.

Cheers

Kurt

Edited August 22, 2005 by /dev/null

[Wus]

I recently read a book that had a section on the way the brain works. It seems similar to the 5th generation languages. "The Engine of Reason, the Seat of the Soul" by Paul Churchland

[autoitNOW]

I am only putting in languages I know.  I do not know Limnor yet.  It does not want to run on my Windows 98 box.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

What do you mean by this?

Select "Downloads" and then go to "Full Setup Downloads". You will see files for Windows 98/ME/NT.

I will have to say that Windows 98 is a bit outdated though... ( http://www.microsoft.com/windows98/default.asp )

[autoitNOW]

Oh by the way...

Another visual codeless programming language should be added to the list:

Tersus ( http://www.tersus.org/ ) Uses Java, like Imitate, but it is free, open-source, and will run on both Windows and Linux (well very soon... is using Java afterall).

In addition to Tersus, I forgot to mention another codeless programming language called Synopsis ( http://www.codemorphis.com/index.php?cid=0 ), which is .NET based like Limnor. But I don't personally like Synopsis over reliance on its flow chart method as it creates "visual overload" and can be slow.

Overall, I think Limnor is the better codeless language out of them all as you can use it to do things like make DLLs now, create free performers (from dlls and used by Limnor), trade libraries and performers for free among users (though you pay for the main program), you can manually/hand-code/add VB.NET and C# code (the old fashion way) too, and is about to come out with a bunch of "value-add" performers (though users can make their own) that should prove really interesting.

Codeless and auto generating of code is coming...

Interestingly, what will happen when you can have Assembly language "translated" into MSIL/CIL (.NET intermediate language) or Java Bytecode? The "flow" does not have to be in one direction.

All you "hardcore" programmers should know what I'm talking about. That day is not all that far off either.

[Valik]

I think it's safe to say that you are a zealot.

[autoitNOW]

I think it's safe to say that you are a zealot.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

And you... you are not?

Am I really, or am I just making a valid point?

http://www.viksoe.dk/code/asmil.htm (this is not even recent... and talking about self extinction...well I'm sure he knows it will not be the Assembler programmers...but imagine .NET people that really want to go in that "reverse" direction...)

I'm saying that a "revolution or evolution" has already begun, whether you, I, or anybody else acknowledges it. I'm just thinking it would be sad to get left behind.

Anyway... I guess everybody has their perspective.

Edited August 25, 2005 by autoitNOW

[Valik]

And you... you are not? 

What am I zealous over? I've not proclaimed an enormous affinity for any language in particular, all I've tried to do (in vain) was get you off your soapbox spouting things you don't really understand. The Steve Balmer clip comes to mind again of somebody standing out there before the crowd trying to get a point across nobody else really believes in.

Am I really, or am I just making a valid point? 

http://www.viksoe.dk/code/asmil.htm  (this is not even recent... and talking about self extinction...well I'm sure he knows it will not be the Assembler programmers...but imagine .NET people that really want to go in that "reverse" direction...)

I'm saying that a "revolution or evolution" has already begun, whether you, I, or anybody else acknowledges it.  I'm just thinking it would be sad to get left behind.

Anyway... I guess everybody has their perspective.

A revolution is nothing without masses. The people are what make a revolution, not an individual. Speaking of this revolution (or evolution), where is it? I don't see it anywhere. I don't hear about it. There's no rioting in the streets over this. I'm not assaulted from all media outlets about this. In fact, until you typed the words on this forum for the first time, I'd never heard of this codeless programming genre because it had never registered on the radar of anything I'd ever viewed. How's that for your revolution? Its so rampant that I'd never heard of it on any of the programming sites I'd been to or the newsgroups I've perused or the Google searches or the...

So now I ask, are you just making things up again or are you so disillusioned by hype that you can't see the rest of us here in reality land? Let me explain to you what you are the victim of: It's called hype, buzzword technology, fad, propaganda. Codeless is in fact not the new black. In fact, it's not even the next gray, and we all know about the scientific proof of how crappy a color gray really is (No offense intended to the gray lovers out there, you know who you are, lets have a round of applause for the gray lovers, yeah, see gray lovers, they're sorry, too).

If you're going to be a prophet, then have the courtesy to preach to the choir or at least to those dumber than us. Find a forum of fools to sell your half-truths to.

There are two points I wish to clarify. First, I'm not necessarily saying you are lying or making things up. I'm merely stating that you are rehashing the same propaganda you consumed. This is not entirely your fault, however, it is your fault to a significant extent that it could be prevented.

Second, I'm not questioning the merits of this particular genre or any of its dialects. I'm simply trying to get you to understand that it is in fact not going to herald in a new age of programming, no matter how many birthday wishes you make or shooting starts you wish upon. If you wish to believe otherwise, that's perfectly fine, but clam the cake-hole about it and stop deluding others (or at least stop deluding them in front of me).

[autoitNOW]

What am I zealous over?  I've not proclaimed an enormous affinity for any language in particular, all I've tried to do (in vain) was get you off your soapbox spouting things you don't really understand.  The Steve Balmer clip comes to mind again of somebody standing out there before the crowd trying to get a point across nobody else really believes in.

A revolution is nothing without masses.  The people are what make a revolution, not an individual.  Speaking of this revolution (or evolution), where is it?  I don't see it anywhere.  I don't hear about it.  There's no rioting in the streets over this.  I'm not assaulted from all media outlets about this.  In fact, until you typed the words on this forum for the first time, I'd never heard of this codeless programming genre because it had never registered on the radar of anything I'd ever viewed.  How's that for your revolution?  Its so rampant that I'd never heard of it on any of the programming sites I'd been to or the newsgroups I've perused or the Google searches or the...

So now I ask, are you just making things up again or are you so disillusioned by hype that you can't see the rest of us here in reality land?  Let me explain to you what you are the victim of:  It's called hype, buzzword technology, fad, propaganda.    Codeless is in fact not the new black.  In fact, it's not even the next gray, and we all know about the scientific proof of how crappy a color gray really is (No offense intended to the gray lovers out there, you know who you are, lets have a round of applause for the gray lovers, yeah, see gray lovers, they're sorry, too).

If you're going to be a prophet, then have the courtesy to preach to the choir or at least to those dumber than us.  Find a forum of fools to sell your half-truths to.

There are two points I wish to clarify.  First, I'm not necessarily saying you are lying or making things up.  I'm merely stating that you are rehashing the same propaganda you consumed.  This is not entirely your fault, however, it is your fault to a significant extent that it could be prevented.

Second, I'm not questioning the merits of this particular genre or any of its dialects.  I'm simply trying to get you to understand that it is in fact not going to herald in a new age of programming, no matter how many birthday wishes you make or shooting starts you wish upon.  If you wish to believe otherwise, that's perfectly fine, but clam the cake-hole about it and stop deluding others (or at least stop deluding them in front of me).

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well... "Time will tell".

I do respect you Valik, but I find it laughable that you, of all people, may think you are free of "zealousness".

My point was to show other viable alternatives and to remind some of us that things change and it may be good to consider or factor this in when we are talking about the future and/or careers.

As you can tell by the post count and my history of NOT insulting or discouraging users that I'm usually quite content to observe more than get involved. But there are times that I'm so saddened by the "usual" spewings of the "status quo", unimaginative "robotics", and plain snobbishness or snobbish beliefs of what is the "right path" that I feel compelled to suggest that there are other directions and paths that can be taken.

Also, you can always ignore me and I can ignore you, thus you will not have to suffer so. But, if you feel compelled to comment because somebody has a difference of opinion than the blame or suffering can't obviously all be placed on the person posting.

Edited August 25, 2005 by autoitNOW

[/dev/null]

That day is not all that far off either....

... when the messiah arrives??

Yup, it's safe to say that you ARE a zealot.

Cheers

Kurt

[Valik]

I do respect you Valik, but I find it laughable that you, of all people, may think you are free of "zealousness".

You've yet to tell me what I'm zealous over.